Tweeter failed 4X this year!

[Iconoclast]

My Mirage OS-3 CC speaker has failed for the fourth time.

Speaker handles 10-175 Watts, 3/4” Titanium hybrid (3” mid + 2x 4.5 woofers)

AVR is Pioneer Elite Sc05: 140 Watts/ch with all 5 channels driven 20-20KHz.

Use 12AWG Enhanced Loud Oxygen-Free Copper Speaker Wire Cable from monoprice & have banana plugs on both ends so no stray stands of wire crossing over from positive to negative terminal. (I’m told by a tech that if using bare wire & do have wires cross it damages amp & not speaker anyway.)

Bought Mirage speakers 3-2009 & upgraded to this Sc05 AVR 6-2009.

Center Channel Speaker problems:

1-2011:
Returned to Best Buy due to muffled sound from CC. They found failed tweeter & replaced. CC worked great again.

8-2011:
Same symptoms. Returned to Best Buy due to muffled sound from CC. They found loose connection to tweeter & soldered/repaired. CC worked great again. (I assumed sloppy, incompetent job with tweeter replacement 7 months prior -- causing the loose connection)

10-2011:
Same symptoms. Muffled sound from CC.
This time I called Mirage direct & they agreed to exchange for NEW CC speaker. Got new speaker & CC worked great again. I thought it was over.

12-2011:
Same symptoms. Muffled sound from CC.
(Arrrrrrggggggghhhhh!!!!!!!)


I called a Pioneer authorized repair shop & spoke at length with a tech. I was going to bring in my AVR thinking there was some distortion going out to the CC. Tech says it would be very rare based on my symptoms. He thinks AVR is fine & suspects problem (design flaw?) with Mirage crossover or tweeters. If there was a high frequency digital noise problem with the AVR he would expect it to damage the tweeter in hours & it would not take weeks or months of daily use to do this.

I listen loud (BD movies at -8.5 dB on my display & TV at -13.5) but, I do not think I’m clipping the amp. AVR Max volume is +8.5 & I never get close to that. Rarely, with a quiet BD, I’ve gone to -7.5. I realize these numbers are subjective & -8.5 on 2 different AVRs would not be the same dB if measured.


I’m going to call Pioneer tomorrow & then Mirage. If/when I send in speaker for repair I think in 6 weeks or 6 months I’ll have a 5th failed tweeter.

Every expert tells me distortion is what damages tweeters or woofers. Or the part itself is defective. (Or the crossover?)

Any suggestions? On my last nerve!

Thanks for any help.

[MrBoylan]

I don't have an answer, but I have a suggestion. If it is an incompatibility with amp and speaker then you could try driving just the center channel speaker with an external mono-block amp (or one half of a stereo amp) using the center channel preamp output of the SC05 into the power amp. If the speaker survives, then you'd have a workaround that wouldn't require a major system change or a major expense. This would also lighten the load on the receiver's internal amps by eliminating their need to drive that center channel speaker and concentrating their power on the remaining speakers.

Don't know of too many good new options for that that aren't too expensive but you should be able to pick up a used Marantz MA500 or MA700 power amp on eBay. The MA500 is a great little monoblock amp that can drive a wide range of speakers. I am using three in my system currently for surround and center channel duties. The MA500 should cost between $70 and $100 used. Here's one ending within a day:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Marantz-MA50...item19cb5e9671

Sorry I can't tell you definitively what's wrong but it doesn't sound like anything simple. This test will at least eliminate (or substantiate) the Pioneer receiver as a potential culprit since it will not be driving the speaker any more. If the speaker lives, then the receiver may be to blame. If it dies with the power amp in the loop, then it's definitely not the receiver.

Good luck!

-Chris

[Iconoclast]

Thanks Chris

I have never used such a set up. It makes sense that if the Sc05 was NOT driving the CC & the problem still occurred it means the problem is not the Sc05. I’m not sure exactly what an incompatibility with amp and speaker actually means. If there are cases where a certain amp always blows certain speakers with both being used correctly & within their respective specs., I sure have not heard about this & don’t think it is common.

It is very difficult to believe that is is just bad luck & the next fix will work forever.
1st time bad tweeter
2nd time bad wiring
3rd time (unknown since I exchanged)
4th time ????
Hard to believe a batch had a factory defect since the original one was purchased 3-2009 & the new replacement was sent 10-2011.

I’ll see what Pioneer says re possible AVR defects that can cause this & then see what Mirage says.

I even have contemplated asking Mirage to swap out a different model for the CC even if they charge me $$ to do so. The next higher spec model is OMD-C1

It has a 1 inch tweeter instead of the 3/4 inch one I have & the midrange & woofers are also larger. My OS-3 has an MRSP of $400
while the larger OMD-C1 is $750. However the OMD-C1 is currently selling for $350 on Amazon -- Vanns. But, It is 3” taller & mine sits right in front of my TV & I have only 1” space till the bottom of the picture & with the larger one I’d have it block 2” of picture which is unacceptable. If I moved it lower to a shelf, the top of the cabinet would block all the sound waves that point up which is essential for this particular style speaker's sound.

I have no idea if the larger tweeter would make a difference anyway just was thinking that it may blend better with the other Mirages & the Sc05 auto EQ setup would match the volume correctly.

If not for the blocking the picture problem I’d be very tempted to try this.
Steve


http://www.miragespeakers.ca/na-en/p...pecifications/

[MrBoylan]

When conventional wisdom fails, you have to think outside the box, or in this case, outside the speaker cabinet.

Nothing about this situation is "common." It's either uncommonly bad luck to get two lemons, failure of the amp at high loads when driving all channels or a defective component in the Mirages. But if it were purely the Mirage speakers at fault, then this would be a common complaint on this model, and I don't think it is (at least I haven't heard of it before). So it could be that the specific load of this speaker on this receiver causes the amp to start clipping and the distortion is punishing the tweeter which eventually fails.

I'd try the external amp first. The MA500 is very slim and discrete and costs very little on the used market. The MCACC calibration should still work fine when using an external amp via the center channel pre-amp output. You can mix and match external and internal power amps with no problems.

The other Mirage center channel idea is interesting, but that OMD-C1 is a slightly *more* demanding load on an amp, according to the specs (6 ohm average, 4 ohm nominal vs. the rated 8 ohm load of the OS3). These specs are averages though. They don't tell you whether there is a peak load at specific frequencies that may be causing the amp to clip. But you can get that OMD-C1 as low as $299 in maple ($349 in Rosewood) directly from Vanns. Here's our link to that:

http://www.shareasale.com/r.cfm?u=20...Dsite%5Fsearch

Then you'd just need to find a way to lift your TV up about two inches (how are your carpentry skills?).

Anyway, I do hope you find a solution, or at least a viable workaround.

Regards,

-Chris

[Iconoclast]

Chris,

I will reserve your external amp idea. I understand that this is a solution if it is my amp clipping. I probably would pay (out of warranty) for my Sc05 to get checked for clipping 1st. Hopefully it wouldn't test OK & only clips with that particular speaker hooked up to CC.

I thought of raising the TV 3 inches but it is 65” Panny & the cabinet looks good. I’d need to find a matching 3” thick piece of wood stained the same color to go under & cut it to the size of the stand base. And this solution may not work anyway! I can’t test for an hour & know. It may take 6 months b4 the tweeter fails as b4. The 6 Ohms troubles me vs my current 8 Ohms.

I just ordered from Amazon:
Pyle PSPL01 Mini Digital Sound Level Meter
$32.47
http://www.amazon.com/Pyle-PSPL01-Di...3254390&sr=1-5

http://www.pyleaudio.com/sku/PSPL01/...nd-Level-Meter

I had read how Radio Shack SPLs are inaccurate & am happy with the calibration using my Pioneer MCAAC & I set my Front Speakers to small even though it auto sets to large so my sub can do the low end.
I assume this Pyle is also inaccurate but it is cheap & my purpose is to see approximately how loud I listen to BDs at -8.5. I’m hoping it is no higher than 85dB but if I find it is over 100dB, I may indeed need to “turn it down.” The Galaxy CM-140 may be a better meter but I hate to spend $130 since I am basically going to use it a few times only & not to calibrate the speakers, just to check the overall volume.

Thanks,

Steve

[Iconoclast]

Spoke with Pioneer “Troubleshooting” Department. They agreed with Local Authorized repair center that is is very unlikely to be the AVR. Especially since the Sc05 is designed to shut down if clipping begins to occur!

I will speak to Mirage Thursday & get repair authorization & ship it to them. I will call when they receive it & try to talk to the tech assigned to fix it to see exactly what is wrong; tweeter failure, loose connection or X-over. Maybe I can get him to replace the X-Over & triple check/solder the wiring & see if he has any ideas? When my SPL meter arrives I will check the volume at my max -8.5 BD setting & check it again when the repaired CC is back in place.


BTW, the Pioneer rep asked the impedance of my CC (8 Ohms) & said that if I had been using a 6 Ohm speaker instead of 140 W the amp would be at 180 W! Well that blows any idea of going up a model in the Mirage CC since the one we discussed (OMD-C1) was 6 Ohms nominal & only 4 Ohms minimum! Yet, recommended amp power remains 10-175 Watts same as with my OS3.

[Iconoclast]

Spoke with Mirage CS rep at length. He said they do not repair defective speakers! (This is hard to believe) They only replace with new & that is what they will do again. I did convince him to have a tech look at my returned speaker to tell me if it is; bad tweeter, crossover or wiring. He was unable to look up what the problem was on my other CC I had sent in 10-2011 for the new CC that is broken now. Too bad. It would have been very useful for me to know why the tweeter had stopped working for the 3rd time on that original CC. So, 1st time was bad tweeter & 2nd time was loose connection. The Mirage CS rep said he doesn’t trust Best Buy repair of Mirage speaker. He said even though the BB repair tech said it was a loose connection it may have been an intermittent tweeter or some other problem & maybe BB moved it & it started working so he re-soldered it. (I find this speculation hard to believe) BB IS an authorized Mirage repair facility. My choices under warranty have been to let BB send it to the BB facility in CA at N/C or to ship back to Mirage in CA at my expense. That was why I used BB the 1st two times.

Based on some questions he asked me re relative volume of CC speaker vs my others & EQ, I checked the Sc05 MCACC data. I think using this auto calibration gives me great sound. I do write down the distance & the +/- dB for each speaker every time I run the MCACC set up. The differences each time are very slight. Maybe 0.5dB for volume & a fraction of an inch for distance.

The last time I ran it & the current settings are as follows:

Channel Level:
L=+3.0 dB
C=+4.0 dB
R=+3.5 dB
SR=+1.5 dB
SL=+1.5 dB
SW=-1.0 dB

The last 4 times I ran it
C= +3.5 or +4
R= +3,+3.5 or +4
L= +3

So, I don’t think the CC speaker is boosted significantly more than the R&L.

Are these settings typical of what you people see with your auto calibration?

Speaker distance remains constant all the times I run the MCACC so no errors & I did measure with tape measure the 1st time I ever ran it.

Finally, I checked the EQ looking to see if the CC has a big boost in treble above the 2.7kHz X-over frequency. It does not. At 4kHz the EQ is below the 0dB line & 8kHz right on the 0dB. At 16kHz it is set above the 0dB line (no scale but, maybe 1/4 to 1/3 of the available space above the 0dB line) However both R & L speakers are also similarly set for 16kHz.

I don’t see any problem with any of these settings.

When I receive the replacement CC speaker I will run the program again. I always mark the exact spot for the CC speaker when it is gone so I return it to it’s spot. I’d be surprised if I was off by more than 1/8 inch. Maybe I will manually set the CC to the lower (+3.5 dB) of the two setting it tends to auto set at. Even if it auto sets to +4.0. Just to be extra careful.

I will probably get my SPL meter b4 I get my new, replacement CC speaker. I’ll do some testing with my substitute (large box Advent as CC on the floor) just to get a ballpark idea of how loud is loud. I’ll have the real results of SPL tests after I test with my replacement Mirage CC.

The Mirage CS rep said only two things destroy tweeters & those things destroy woofers even sooner & more often; Too much power & distortion. He agreed I do not have too much power. (140 Watts & sp rated till 175). He could not say why it worked for 6 weeks to 2 months b4 tweeter stopped if it was distortion from the AVR. He asked if I plug in an iPod & get a loud pop which can blow tweeters (I do not)
He didn’t have any other ideas.

A couple times I have put in a cheap BD (I think it was Mill Creek,$5 or $6 titles?) And as usual I set volume to -8.5 b4 the BD even loads & the Mill Creek or whatever studio logo came on with sound WAY TOO LOUD! I turned volume down -10 or even lower & then when movie started I had to turn back up to -8.5. But that has happened maybe 3x & not for many weeks. So if that instance of very loud &/or distorted sound from the BD caused the tweeter problem , it didn’t happen right then which makes no sense to me. I always notice the CC tweeter going out bc I have sudden trouble understanding dialog in movies since usually only CC carries dialog unlike TV DD 5.1 where CC AND R&L carry dialog (I’ve checked this).

I will decide if I should waste my time & money by bringing my AVR in for a checkup after I hear back re the reason for the tweeter not working. It will be a huge hassle & both Pioneer & local repair shop & everyone on these forums say it is very unlikely it is the AVR.

But, if my SPL tests do not show that I listen at 100+ levels & the tweeter is blown, I may just do it to not leave any possibility unchecked -- however remote. Before I consider spending much money to replace my Mirage with another brand, I’ll check the AVR.

If I do end up replacing speakers, I would probably replace R & L & CC with the same brand & continue to use my existing Mirages for SR & SL & SW. I think using the same brand designed for HT gives you a more balanced sound in the front especially when sound sweeps across the soundstage. I know some may disagree & think, if needed, I should only replace the CC & keep the Mirage R&L.

I’m hoping Mirage sends me the new one & a couple days later tells me it was NOT a blown tweeter rather a X-over or wiring issue.

[Iconoclast]

I spoke with Pioneer again re the MCACC speaker relative volume. I was told that while it is common for one speaker to be set at 0 dB & that I would have the same RELATIVE volumes if I manually changed them so one was at 0 & others lowered by the same amount, I should not do that. The test tones are 75dB & the speakers are individually adjusted so each one puts out 75dB. Depending on speaker efficiency, room size & speaker placement, speakers may all need to be boosted by a few dB in order to achieve that 75dB reference volume.

Current MCACC settings:

• L = +3.0 dB
• C = +4.0 dB
• R = +3.5 dB
• SR = +1.5 dB
• SL = +1.5 dB
• SW = -1.0 dB


My proposed manual changes keeping same relative DB:

• L = -1.0 dB
• C = 0.0 dB
• R = -0.5 dB
• SR = -2.5 dB
• SL = - 2.5 dB
• SW = - 5.0 dB


Although when I run MCACC with new CC speaker, I will run it a few times & use whatever the lowest boost for the CC is. Probably +3.0 rather than +3.5 or +4.0. Despite the Pioneer c.s rep not thinking this change is very important, rather than place the mic on the top of the headrest of my recliner, I will use a tripod & tape a yardstick & the mic to the yardstick so it “floats” close to where my head/ears are. Some people on Pioneer MCACC forums claim better results.



I received my SPL meter & and ran many preliminary tests using my temp CC speaker (Advent 3002 on the floor tilted up) along with the rest of my Mirage 5.1 setup.

The SPL meter, Inexpensive, Pyle PSPL01, is accurate to +/- 3.5 dB @ 1kHz 94dB
freq. range 31.5Hz-~8kHz
C weighted
Fast response 125 ms.

Seems reasonably accurate. B4 testing my HT, I tested quiet room (25-35 dB) And my drum set. I was able to get Max peak of ~96 - 98dB with cymbal crashes 2 feet away & 118.0 dB! with snare drum rim shots.

I detected virtually 0 difference with & w/o wind screen & pointing mic straight ahead vs 45 degrees upwards. So, these are with ws on & pointing almost straight ahead, a slight tilt so I could see the screen. held SPL meter just in front of my face.

HDTV shows with DD 5.1 audio at my normal volume of -13.5, depending on show & station I’m getting max peak of 62-72 dB.

Music Blu ray disc (BD) Stereo “Carlos Santana presents...”, sounds Loud at -16.0 volume, max peak = 75.3 dB.

Loud action Movies (BD), the most important tests:

I typically listen at -8.5 or -10.0 it audio mix seems too loud. I am considering making -10.0 my maximum for most BDs based on some interesting data below.

“Leon, The Professional” DTS HD MA 5.1:

volume -10.0
~50-65 dB during music, dialog
79.1 dB during gun fights
103.0 - 105.5 dB Loudest explosion

Volume -8.5, same movie, same scenes sampled:

~55-70 dB during music, dialog
91.1 dB during gun fights
98.6 - 98.9 dB Loudest explosion

I was puzzled as to why the louder -8.5 master volume setting has a lower max SPL during the one big explosion when compared to the -10.0 volume setting. I ran that test 10x. Same 30 second clip of the explosion. Turning off & then back on my SPL meter b4 each test. I am convinced Sc05 has some programming that limits louder volume when the master volume is turned up past a certain point. Since I saw the same phenomenon when testing other BDs! So, in effect when listing with master volume at -8.5 I am experiencing LESS dynamic range than when listening at -10.0, in effect some audio compression. Probably to prevent peaks of 110-115 dB.


“Fifth Element Remastered” Dolby Tru HD:

volume -10.0
opening credits 90.9
15-17 minutes 101.0- 101.4!
1:27-1:32 concert/fight scene 93.2 max (Often used for HT demo in stores & awesome audio!)

volume -8.5
opening credits 96.1
15-17 minutes 101.1-102.4! (I think it is limited again)
1:27-1:32 concert/fight scene 96.0 max

Now Mirage cs had told me even peaks of 105 should not be a problem if no distortion.

“The Incredible Hulk” DTS HD MA 5.1: (Have not watched in over 1 year so this movie did NOT break my CC any of the 4 times. I watched this in mid-late 2009 one of my 1st BDs)

volume -10.0
~ 48 minuets college campus fight scene max = 107.1 ! (Wow)

volume -8.5
~ 48 minuets college campus fight scene max = 106.9 ! (Again, peak dB must be limited)

So, I tried lower master volume setting for this BD:

volume -11.0
~ 48 minuets college campus fight scene max = 107.1 again (wtf!)

volume -12.5
~ 48 minuets college campus fight scene max = 102.5 (Made note & will use this volume for this BD in future. Regardless of my CC issue, this gives wider dynamic range & is still plenty loud for this movie & may save my hearing

Now I wanted to see if my speakers were set at 75dB at reference by MCACC using Digital Video Essentials (DVE) BD. Even though any CC readings are from the temp speaker the other speakers would give correct test results. And I can “ballpark” the CC since the Advent is 88 dB efficiency vs the missing Mirage at 91. I’m guessing the Mirage will read louder using SPL meter than the Advent but not sure since Advent is designed differently & drivers pointing directly at meter vs the Omnipolar 360 degree soundstage technology. DVE says if I set my master vol to “0” each speaker should read 75dB with Pink Noise. Was a bit worried about turning vol up that high but, wasn't too loud. It was tricky getting the test tone for each speaker since the DVE had no way to go speaker by speaker with me controlling when to change to next speaker. It went from left to right & around the room using effectively a 10.1 speaker system. It had diagram & the speaker outputting the sound would change color for 5-10 seconds. In addition to the normal speaker location, it used phantom, extra speakers such as one between L & CC achieved by using both speakers so sound appears to come from an imaginary speaker between the two (Hence my 10.1 mention earlier) I discovered I could use Skip FW/chapter FW & Reverse keys to skip the phantom speakers & repeat tests on my exact speakers & also I verified which location in the diagram output sound only from my surround R & SL. Of this I am certain. So all numbers below are from the speaker listed & only that speaker. (Wish DVE was more user friendly but, got it to work) For these individual speaker tests I pointed SPL meter directly at the speaker holding it close to my head.

Section titled “Multi Channel Levels & Balance”

Recall with my master volume at 0, I should see 75dB from each speaker.

L= 68
C=68.4
R=68.3
SR= 65.4 (possible lamp shade in the direct path between speaker & mic)
SL= 66.6

Did not test subW since I like the sound & volume & there are volumes written/posted on sub calibration.

Main thing I learned its my speakers are all putting out LESS than 75dB. Maybe 7 dB too low.
If true than when I listen at master volume setting of -10.0 it may be the same as listening to master vol -17.0 with speakers that are more efficient than mine of a different/better/smaller room!
This may well explain WHY MCACC set a 3-4 dB boost for my front 3 speakers.
Also, are my surrounds set too low?



Of course, I will repeat all these tests once I receive the replacement Mirage CC & after I run MCACC using the tripod as described above. Also, will d/c R & L speakers & play some BD action scenes listening to just the CC speaker & crank the volume up from about -20 to -10 but no higher than -8.5 & see if I begin to hear any distortion at all.

However, unless there is a drastic difference, I don’t think I am listening at levels that should give the Mirage CC any problems at all. Do you?

[MrBoylan]

The volume levels are high but don't seem excessive. The lower dB levels with the higher volume settings actually make a weird kind of sense -- you are driving all speakers to higher average levels, which represents more of a constant drain on the amp and it means the amp will have less headroom for peaks. If you measure the average SPL over time, I'm guessing it will be higher at the higher volume levels, though the peaks will be lower. Meanwhile, when you are driving the speaker at a lower average volume, there is still room left for peak power to jump when required by the content.

In answer to your question/comment, yes you are getting less dynamic headroom at the higher volume settings because the internal amps are running out of steam. Keep in mind, even though this is a Pioneer Elite receiver, it is still a receiver after all, not a discrete set of 5 or 7 dedicated power amps. The internal amps share components (including power supplies) which means the demands on any one of the internal amps will affect power output to the others, and if you're driving them all at high levels, you will run out of current. Many audiophiles prefer using dedicated monoblock amps (or at least a dedicated multi-channel power amp), so they can take all that heavy power draw out of the crowded chassis of the receiver.

I still recommend picking up one (or more!) of those Marantz monoblock amps and work those into the system, specifically for left, right and center as that's where most of the action is. When the amplifier load is lightened by 1, 2 or 3 channels, it will be able to dedicate what power it does have to the channels that are still in use. I think you'll see your dynamic range shoot up significantly, with higher max SPLs as you give each channel its own dedicated amp.

Anyway... thanks for your detailed post. Keep us in the loop on what happens.

Regards,

-Chris

[Iconoclast]

Surprising info from Mirage techs! BTW, Mirage is owned by Klipsch. So, I call & sent speaker to Klipsch for tech support.

Heard from Mirage/Klipsch today. They tested my OS3-CC & saw problem & he pulled 2 new ones off the shelf & tested & they have SAME ISSUE! When using amp with 130-140 wpc, the “lead” comes off the tweeter. The glue is good & the soldering is good. Putting more glue will not work. (I think the lead is a wire from terminal to voice coil) He said the tweeter is not taking the amount of power we are sending to it. Network checks out. He did not want to send me another OS3-CC since thinks the same issue will occur. He wants to send me a much more efficient speaker that will take that power easily. Klipsch RC62 Mark II. Efficiency/Sensitivity = 98dB.
My OS3-CC = 91dB.

So, it appears that the specs on the Mirage OS3 CC may be... to put it nicely.....“overly optimistic.” Stating amps from 10-175 wpc. So, I will need to change CC speaker to a different one.

I want to keep a uniform sound stage for the front 3 speakers. Since my L&R are Mirage OS3 FS which are omnipolar speakers & throw the sound up & out 360 degrees, I prefer a different Mirage to replace my CC.

The choices are:

Mirage OMD-C1
Mirage OMD-C2
Both 6 Ohm speakers.
The C2 is awesome but just too big to fit anywhere. I will try to get an OMD C-1. Has a 1” tweeter like my L&R ones do. While the OS3-CC is $400 & rarely discounted, the C1 is $750 & currently $300-330 at Amazon or Vanns.

http://www.miragespeakers.com/na-en/...d-c1-overview/



My problem is where can I put it? My OS3-CC sits in front of my 65” TV on the pedestal stand, which sits on the console. My speaker is not very high (5.2”) & I have less than 1” b4 the bottom of my screen. The C1 is 7.88” high. It will block approx. 2” of the bottom of the TV picture! I can move my components around to free up the top center shelf. It is 7” high, 21” wide & 16” deep. So a typical front firing speaker that fits would work but, Mirage must not be blocked from above!
I will try a few ways to make this work. Tilting the speaker with a wedge to see if I can have all the drivers facing out, or placing a wood plank on my shelf that sticks out 3-6” & putting the C1 on the edge of this extended shelf. I’ll secure or clamp the loose wood to the back of the shelf so no tipping. Or use the wall mount bracket & then attach “something” (a block of wood?) & secure that something to the shelf so the speaker appears suspended in air just in front of the shelf. Maybe Mirage Macromount bracket would work? Secure the bracket to the front of the shelf?