Samsung BDP1200 Blu-ray - 4:3 content is stretched on TC-P50G25 HDTV, Why?

[rcp]

Hi!

Everyone (including me!) focuses on the best audio/video performance that can be squeezed out of the latest equipment but I have a kind of retro concern -- the ability to play old 4:3 movies and TV shows on Blu-ray and DVD.

I had this working well with my combination of Samsung BD-P1200 and LNT-4665F. I was able to get a 4:3, undistorted, aspect ratio with bars on the side.

I just swapped out my LNT-4665F TV for a Panasonic TC-P50G25. The TV is great but I cannot get 4:3 aspect ratio! It seems the Samsung BD player stretches the 4:3 image to 9:16 and my Samsung TV was able to squeeze it back to the correct 4:3 aspect ratio. (I assume that's how it was working but no longer have the Samsung TV to check.) Unfortunately, the 4:3 setting on the Panny TV does NOT do this! Its 4:3 setting simply takes the (distorted) 9:16 image and masks off the left and right ends of the image! Calls to Panasonic support confirmed that this is the way the Panny works. I could NOT get the tech to promise me it would work any better with a Panny BD player!

P.S. I could tell you all the various options I tried on both units, options dealing with resolutions, aspect rations and HDMI, but that would be almost as tedious as it was to try them all. I can say everything is connected via HDMI through a Denon 2808CI [EDIT: AVR, not DVR!] . The Denon has an "image conversion" option under its HDMI setup and I tried that both on and off. Also remember it all worked before I swapped out the TV with no other changes.

So, my question is -- will the Panny BD85K output a true 4:3 image that the Panny P50G25 can display correctly?

Thanks.
Bob

This is my first post to this forum. I found this place from Chris Boylan's review of the BS85K on Amazon.

[rcp]

AHA! I looked before but somehow missed it: Panasomic DMP-BD85 Review. I note the following quote:

... aspect ratio can be a problem, with 4:3 content sometimes being stretched out to 16:9 with no way to un-stretch it

So I guess this player might be a bad match for me since I really like old movies from the 40s and 50s and 4:3 TV shows (e.g. Tales of the Gold Monkey, Paladin). BTW, TotGM has a perfect demo of this situation with (what should be) a perfectly round figure in the center of the main menu.

I was told by a salesman that I should forget the Panny and get a Sony. I was considering the Panny since I figured it would have a good feature-set match with the TC-P50G25 . Apparently not, in this area at least.

[MrBoylan]

So I guess this player might be a bad match for me since I really like old movies from the 40s and 50s and 4:3 TV shows (e.g. Tales of the Gold Monkey, Paladin). BTW, TotGM has a perfect demo of this situation with (what should be) a perfectly round figure in the center of the main menu.

I was told by a salesman that I should forget the Panny and get a Sony. I was considering the Panny since I figured it would have a good feature-set match with the TC-P50G25 . Apparently not, in this area at least.

Hi, and welcome to the forum!

That quote about stretched 4:3 content was only about Divx or xvid-encoded video content on the BD85 being played back from a USB flash card. The Panasonic players support 4:3 content perfectly well from Blu-ray Discs or DVDs. The correct setting on the TV should be "Full" and make sure the player is set up for a 16:9 TV in the set-up menu (NOT a 4:3 TV). With everything set to these defaults, 4:3 content should be played back absolutely fine from Blu-ray or DVD on this TV, with black or grey bars on the sides of the screen.

The player also has an aspect ratio control on it that works for some DVDs. Just hit the "sub-menu" button during playback and you will see screen aspect as one of the choices.

If you're seeing 4:3 content stretched to 16:9 then I suspect you have the video output of the player set for a 4:3 TV instead of a 16:9 TV. This sends out a full screen signal which the TV then displays full screen (which means it gets stretched).

Check that and let us know. Also, if there are specific movies or discs you have trouble with, then let us know that too.

-CB

[rcp]

Chris, thanks for the reply.

That quote about stretched 4:3 content was only about Divx or xvd-encoded video content on the BD85 being played back from a USB flash card.

If the aspect difficulty is limited to that I am not too concerned about it, although it does make me a bit uneasy about the whole situation.

If you're seeing 4:3 content stretched to 16:9 then I suspect you have the video output of the player set for a 4:3 TV instead of a 16:9 TV. This sends out a full screen signal which the TV then displays full screen (which means it gets stretched).

Check that and let us know. Also, if there are specific movies or discs you have trouble with, then let us know that too.

-CB

My original setup was just as you suggest and I was (and still am) unable to get a true 4:3 image with the Panny TV. Those are settings I tried in all combinations. As to specific disks, Pretty much any 4:3 DVD source should show the problem. I already mentioned Tales of the Gold Monkey and Paladin.

My Samsung TV has a button called "P.SIZE" (for "picture size") that I would use to switch between 16:9 and 4:3 display. I expected the Panny TC-P50G25 "FORMAT" button to provide the same function but apparently not. I have not yet ruled out some interference from the AVR (i,e, messing up some kind of HDMI video meta information), but that wasn't a problem with my original set-up.

AN ASIDE:
I'm surprised that HDMI doesn't simply figure all this out for you and not make you jump through hoops to resize things to match the source. There is source material in odd aspect ratios (e.g. 1.6:1) and I was never able to find a combination of settings that made that come out right (should have been narrow bars at top and bottom).

Bob

[thebat356]

if you are getting gray bars when watching 4:3 material.. then turn off the screensaver. then you should get black side bars.

Jacob

[MrBoylan]

My original setup was just as you suggest and I was (and still am) unable to get a true 4:3 image with the Panny TV. Those are settings I tried in all combinations. As to specific disks, Pretty much any 4:3 DVD source should show the problem. I already mentioned Tales of the Gold Monkey and Paladin.

OK, I think I read your original post too quickly. You're saying your current Samsung BDP-1200 Blu-ray player does not properly output 4:3 material in a way that the Panasonic TV can display? Well, I don't have any direct experience with that Blu-ray player but I can tell you it is not a problem using the Panasonic players (Bd65, BD85) with this TV. 4:3 content is displayed as 4:3; 16:9 is displayed as 16:9, etc. Sounds like the BDP-1200 simply doesn't support 4:3 material properly.

My Samsung TV has a button called "P.SIZE" (for "picture size") that I would use to switch between 16:9 and 4:3 display. I expected the Panny TC-P50G25 "FORMAT" button to provide the same function but apparently not. I have not yet ruled out some interference from the DVR (i,e, messing up some kind of HDMI video meta information), but that wasn't a problem with my original set-up.

OK, now you lost me. How is a DVR (Digital Video Recorder) involved in this? Are you plugging the Blu-ray player directly into the TV using HDMI? If not, you should be. HDMI cannot be routed through a recorder, period. It's a violation of HDCP protocol to record - any device that can record via HDMI is doing weird things to the HDMI/HDCP protocol. If you've got some kind of DVR in between the Blu-ray player and the TV connected via HDMI then all bets are off. And if you've got it connected some other way (component, composite or s-video) then you are probably not getting full resolution signals in addition to wacky aspect ratios. Please elaborate on how everything is connected. If you meant an AVR (Audio/Video Receiver), and it is at least HDMI 1.3, then this should not be a problem (even older HDMI receivers should be OK passing through the signal).

AN ASIDE:
I'm surprised that HDMI doesn't simply figure all this out for you and not make you jump through hoops to resize things to match the source. There is source material in odd aspect ratios (e.g. 1.6:1) and I was never able to find a combination of settings that made that come out right (should have been narrow bars at top and bottom).

Bob

Hooking up a Panasonic Blu-ray player to a Panasonic TV via direct HDMI link will automatically adjust picture settings (including the player's aspect ratio setting) to match the capabilities of the TV at set-up, at least on recent models, assuming VIERA Link is turned on, both on the TV and the player. But again, as long as the player is set for a 16:9 TV, and it is connected directly to the TV, with the TV set to "Full," then I can tell you that 4:3 content will display as 4:3, 2.2:1 will display as 2.2:1, 1.85:1 will display as 1.85:1, etc. You don't need to touch any aspect ratio buttons on the TV to see things in their original aspect ratio. The player will take care of that automatically. BTW, if you have content that is really 1.6:1, then you should actually have slim bars on the sides of the image, not the top and bottom. 1.6:1 is actually narrower than the 1.78:1 ratio of an HDTV, not wider.

But if you have some kind of device in between the source component and the TV (other than a compatible HDMI 1.3+ A/V receiver), then this could definitely explain the problem. If you can tell us more about that, it would help. My feeling is that the Blu-ray player is probably at fault here as it is an early player and I've seen other reports of it not handling 4:3 content properly.

-CB

[rcp]

Chris,

Arrgh! I have an unfortunate typo in my two posts! it should say "AVR" (Audio Video Receiver) not DVR. I will edit that! And yes, DVR would certainly blow all the meaning out of that post!

The Denon 2808CI AVR is 1.3, For example it has a lip-sync setting.

Unfortunately, that set-up has never been able to automatically adjust aspect ratios, leaving it up to me to use that "P.SIZE" button on the TV. Lip-sync never worked either, leaving it up to me to adjust the audio delay via the Denon. I think the P1200 is more like 1.0 or 1.1 than 1.3 and perhaps that is the source of all evil!

[rcp]

OK, thanks for all the advice.

Based on your confidence that things *should* be working, I went through everything one more time and did find a combination of TV and Player configuration items that did the trick.

Turns out the player needs the aspect set to 19:6 and the signal set to 480p at the same time. Once that is done then the TV's "FORMAT" button gets me the right results! I know I earlier tried the 4:3/480p combination figuring they went together hand-and-glove but that didn't work (and I now see why).

So, I had to get three things right at once and I was concentrating on finding just one or two changes that would do the job so missed the magic combination. If I was starting from scratch with all new equipment I think I might have been OK to begin with.

Unfortunately there is no remote button to push that gives me the right results. Whenever I switch to/from a 4:3 source I will need to go into the BD player's deep setup menu and that requires the player to be in "stop" mode (and it can be pretty slow to start again from there).

Also unfortunately, the systems don't cooperate well enough to arrive at the proper configuration automatically based on whatever HDMI info they exchange. Perhaps this is due to the mismatched HDMI profiles. It wouldn't even need to be perfect! I'd be happy if it left me in a position where I simply had to press a button on one of the remotes.

Thanks for your help with this.

[MrBoylan]

Based on your confidence that things *should* be working, I went through everything one more time and did find a combination of TV and Player configuration items that did the trick.

Turns out the player needs the aspect set to 19:6 and the signal set to 480p at the same time. Once that is done then the TV's "FORMAT" button gets me the right results! I know I earlier tried the 4:3/480p combination figuring they went together hand-and-glove but that didn't work (and I now see why).

Actually, I have seen posts on one of the other forums about this 4:3 stretch issue being a problem on the Samsung BD-P1200. Upgrading to a more recent player such as the Panny BD85 (or even to a recent Samsung player) will get you a lot of benefits, including networking features like BD-Live, streaming, faster start-up and disc loading times, and proper handling of aspect ratios without having to jump through hoops in the set-up menu.

But at least you have a way of getting it to work so that's a start.

BTW, I moved this sub-thread into its own thread as it was confusing to be talking about a Samsung player in the Panasonic BD85 review thread.

-CB

[MrBoylan]

Unfortunately there is no remote button to push that gives me the right results. Whenever I switch to/from a 4:3 source I will need to go into the BD player's deep setup menu and that requires the player to be in "stop" mode (and it can be pretty slow to start again from there).

I was thinking, after posting the last reply, that an easier way for you to handle the 4:3 stuff might be to use a component video connection, in addition to HDMI. Since most of the 4:3 content you are watching is on DVD, and since your workaround is already to set output resolution to 480p, using the component video connection just for watching 4:3 DVDs would automatically output the movie as 480p to your TV with little or no loss in picture quality. These players don't upconvert DVDs over component outputs so the resolution will automatically be set to 480i or 480p, regardless of what it is set to in the menus. You would just need to switch the TV over to its component input instead of HDMI in order to view the 4:3 stuff. This way you can keep all the set-up menu settings of the player (16:9, 1080p output, etc.), and just switch inputs and aspect ratio on the TV remote.

Also unfortunately, the systems don't cooperate well enough to arrive at the proper configuration automatically based on whatever HDMI info they exchange. Perhaps this is due to the mismatched HDMI profiles. It wouldn't even need to be perfect! I'd be happy if it left me in a position where I simply had to press a button on one of the remotes.

The HDMI/EDID handshake is done once when the devices connect to each other. HDMI-CEC extensions can be built that allow a player to configure itself based on the connected display, but again, this is normally only done once at connection time. There are some players that have a "source direct" mode that will automatically change their output resolution to match the actual content (in other words, DVDs are output at 480i, while Blu-rays are output at 1080p or 1080i, depending on the content). But really this is only relevant for those who have a super high-end video processor (or high-end display) that they want to use instead of the player's built-in video processor for upconversion. This feature can be found on some Pioneer, Denon and (I believe) OPPO Blu-ray players. There are probably others as well.

-CB