Another Audio ? on the BD60

[Steff3]

I am new so forgive me if this is against forum rules. I quoted and posted the below in another thread and am assuming it did not get noticed so thought I would try here. The first quote is not in full, only the portion the pertained to my audio question.

What you're talking about is not unique to the BD60, but you're overstating the issue a bit. Optical and coax (S/PDIF) digital connections cannot support the full bandwidth of the latest surround sound formats: Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD and multi-channel PCM. What happens when you try to send a DTS-HD track from a Blu-ray Disc over an optical connection is that it sends the "core" DTS track instead, which can be up to 5.1 channels (like what you'd see on a standard DVD). For Dolby TrueHD, it will send a "companion" Dolby Digital track (also up to 5.1), and for a multi-channel PCM soundtrack, the player will send 2-channel PCM. Only in this last case (multi-channel PCM) will you lose your discrete multi-channel surround track.

In the case of Dolby and DTS, you still get discrete 5.1-channel surround sound, but it won't be the full quality lossless surround track stored on the disc. The only way you can carry that full bandwidth lossless surround track to your receiver is if you use HDMI for your audio (which requires that your receiver support HDMI audio decoding), or you get a player with multi-channel analog ouputs and use those (requires that your receiver have a multi-channel analog input). In the first case (HDMI), the soundtrack can be btistreamed to your receiver in its native format or it can be converted by the player to multi-channel PCM sound - either way, you will get the full resolution lossless surround track with up to 7.1 channels. In the second case (multi-channel analog), the player will decode the native soundtrack (DTS-HD, Dolby TrueHD or multi-channel PCM, etc.) to multi-channel analog and then all your receiver has to do is amplify this and send it to the speakers.

Using the HDMI option is ideal because it will generally give you the best results and will be simplest to setup and configure. But if you have an older non-HDMI-equipped receiver, you can get exceelent results using the multi-channel analog approach - it's just trickier to set up. An optical connection will get you decent sound (certainly no worse than regular DVD), but it cannot take advantage of the full performance of Blu-ray audio.


-Chris

I realize this is an older thread but I am nubee to Blu and to this site. Reading thru a few of these it seems maybe I made the wrong choice in the panny BD60 (Costco version that is) that I purchased yesterday. I have a Yamaha V-659. No HDMI thru the receiver. Currently I use a HDMI switch to my JVC HH56G866 for video and either optical or coax to the Yamaha for audio. Harmony controls all the proper inputs on start up and this has worked well for me prior to this box but now after reading some of these posts it sounds as if I should have bought the BD80????? Can I not receive the proper surround sound with the BD60 and my set up? I apologize for my ignorance.

[MrBoylan]

I am new so forgive me if this is against forum rules. I quoted and posted the below in another thread and am assuming it did not get noticed so thought I would try here. The first quote is not in full, only the portion the pertained to my audio question.

It was noticed. This is the busiest time of year for us as we try to stay on top of the best deals for Black Friday to Cyber Monday and post these for our readers. It's how we pay the bills while also tipping people off to the best deals on HDTV, Blu-ray and other home theater gear. You won't always get a reply within hours of your post, but you should eventually get a reply. BTW, I deleted your other post since it was a duplicate.

I realize this is an older thread but I am nubee to Blu and to this site. Reading thru a few of these it seems maybe I made the wrong choice in the panny BD60 (Costco version that is) that I purchased yesterday. I have a Yamaha V-659. No HDMI thru the receiver. Currently I use a HDMI switch to my JVC HH56G866 for video and either optical or coax to the Yamaha for audio. Harmony controls all the proper inputs on start up and this has worked well for me prior to this box but now after reading some of these posts it sounds as if I should have bought the BD80????? Can I not receive the proper surround sound with the BD60 and my set up? I apologize for my ignorance.

The BD60 will work with your gear but you won't get the full quality of audio of which Blu-ray Disc is capable. In order to decode Dolby TrueHD, multi-channel PCM and DTS-HD soundtracks on Blu-ray, you either need to get a receiver that has HDMI inputs and on-board decoders for these formats, or get a player with multi-channel analog outputs like the BD80, LG BD390 or Samsung BD-P3600.

In the case of analog outputs, you would use the player to decode these formats to analog and send 5.1 or 7.1 channel analog sound to your receiver. Of course, this also assumes your receiver has a multi-channel analog input. Not all do. If your receiver is the RXV-659, then yes, that one does have an 8-channel (7.1) input so that would work with the DMP-BD80, or the Samsung or LG players noted above.

The sound of a Blu-ray soundtrack (DTS-HD or Dolby TrueHD) isn't necessarily bad when it's downgraded to regular DTS or Dolby Digital and sent out over the BD60's fiberoptic output - actually in most cases it's better than DVD. But most people want to squeeze every last drop of performance out of their Blu-ray player so they like having the ability to support the lossless surround formats.

Where you can have a problem, though, is with multi-channel PCM soundtracks (also sometimes just called "uncompressed 5.1" or "uncompressed 7.1") on Blu-ray. Admittedly these are not as common as DTS-HD or Dolby TrueHD tracks, but with multi-channel PCM soundtracks, you have to downmix these to two-channel (stereo) output if you use the fiberoptic digital audio outputs. You can set the player to encode rudimentary matrixed surround sound into that two-channel audio signal (so your receiver can decode it in Dolby Pro Logic mode), but this is not as full sounding or convincing as discrete surround sound.

Another option for you would be the LG or Samsung players (BD 370, BD 390, BD-P1600, BD-P3600). They have a "DTS Re-encode" option on the fiberoptic and/or coax digital outputs that re-encodes multi-channel Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD and PCM soundtracks to standard DTS (at a high 1.5 MBPS data rate), which allows you to get pretty high quality (though still "lossy") discrete multi-channel surround sound from virtually any DVD or Blu-ray Disc including Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD and multi-channel PCM soundtracks.

The BD80 is pretty difficult to find right now, so that might not be an option, but the LG BD 390 is a really nice player, albeit a bit more expensive - currently $259.99 on Amazon (make sure you select Amazon as the seller not one of the opportunistic overpriced marketplace sellers). The BD 390 has the multi-channel analog outputs and DTS re-encode features so you have plenty of options. It also has Netflix streaming, built-in WiFi, VUDU and CinemaNow streaming as well as YouTube. So you are definitely getting something useful for that extra money.

Hope that helps.

-CB

[born2flyjet]

hi- a few questions:

1. Do most of the recent (2006 onwards built) audio/video receivers (w/ HDMI input) support decoding the DTS HD and Dolby HD formats? If not, is there a specific feature I should look for?

2. Also, alternatively, if my AV receiver doesn't support it and I try to use the analog output from BD60, would I notice in difference in the sound quality?

3. In order to really appreciate and notice the "improved" sound quality by Dolby HD and DTS HD, do I need to have very high end speakers? I hate spend the money on either BD80 (vs BD60) or purchase a new receiver w/ HDMI and my speakers end up being the weakest link.

thanks!

[MrBoylan]

hi- a few questions:

1. Do most of the recent (2006 onwards built) audio/video receivers (w/ HDMI input) support decoding the DTS HD and Dolby HD formats? If not, is there a specific feature I should look for?

Typically any receiver that lists HDMI 1.3 support with built-in HDMI audio decoding will also have DTS-HD and Dolby TrueHD decoders but there are some exceptions. Just make sure the receiver has Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD decoding on-board and you'll be fine - these are the "features" you'd be looking for if you choose to upgrade your receiver to one that supports HDMI audio decoding.

There are definitely HDMI-equipped receivers made in the past two years that DO NOT support Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD decoding. Some of these are video passthrough only, and some are HDMI 1.1/HDMI 1.2 with decoding of multi-channel PCM over HDMI but not the other formats. The fact is though, that even a receiver that only decodes multi-channel PCM from HDMI will work fine with the BD60, or any other player with its own Dolby TrueHD/DTS-HD decoding. Just set the player to PCM output mode and the player will send a multi-channel PCM signal over HDMI to your receiver. The receiver would then convert this PCM signal to analog.

There are receivers as inexpensive as $300 now that have on-board HDMI audio decoding including DTS-HD and Dolby TrueHD. There are several more in the $300 to $500 range. This is no longer the purview of the rich early adopters.

2. Also, alternatively, if my AV receiver doesn't support it and I try to use the analog output from BD60, would I notice in difference in the sound quality?

Not sure what you mean here. The analog outputs of the BD60 are stereo (2-channel) only. If you are using a BD60 with a receiver that does not support HDMI audio decoding, then you should be using the digital (fiberoptic) output of the BD60 to your receiver. Set DTS and Dolby to "bitstream" so your receiver will get standard DTS and Dolby surround tracks from both Blu-ray Discs and DVDs.

3. In order to really appreciate and notice the "improved" sound quality by Dolby HD and DTS HD, do I need to have very high end speakers? I hate spend the money on either BD80 (vs BD60) or purchase a new receiver w/ HDMI and my speakers end up being the weakest link.

thanks!

Well then it sounds like you're going to need new speakers too. Seriously though, as I said earlier in the thread, Blu-rays do not sound "bad" when you play them through standard S/PDIF digital connections to a good receiver and speakers. If you're happy with DVD sound, then you'll be at least as happy with Blu-ray sound through the same system, if not happier.

If on the other hand you sometimes notice straining or compressed dynamic range or harsh high frequencies on DVDs (artifacts of lossy compression) then you may be happier with a system that supports lossless decoding. It's definitely true that the differences between lossy and lossless compression are more evident on higher end, high resolution systems, but the better your input source, the better your sound, even on a modest system.

The major limitation with listening to Blu-ray Discs through a S/PDIF digital connection (fiber or coax) is with multi-channel PCM soundtracks which simply cannot be passed through this type of connection. For that you need multi-channel analog (BD80 instead of BD60) or an HDMI audio-capable receiver.

Personally, I prefer to have choices. If you can still find a BD80 for a reasonable price (which is getting hard to do right now due to excessive demand and insufficient supply), then you can experiment with the digital and analog multi-channel outputs and see which you prefer. And then if you should choose to upgrade receiver or speakers, you at least won't need to change the player.

-CB

[Steff3]

It was noticed. This is the busiest time of year for us as we try to stay on top of the best deals for Black Friday to Cyber Monday and post these for our readers. It's how we pay the bills while also tipping people off to the best deals on HDTV, Blu-ray and other home theater gear. You won't always get a reply within hours of your post, but you should eventually get a reply. BTW, I deleted your other post since it was a duplicate.



The BD60 will work with your gear but you won't get the full quality of audio of which Blu-ray Disc is capable. In order to decode Dolby TrueHD, multi-channel PCM and DTS-HD soundtracks on Blu-ray, you either need to get a receiver that has HDMI inputs and on-board decoders for these formats, or get a player with multi-channel analog outputs like the BD80, LG BD390 or Samsung BD-P3600.

In the case of analog outputs, you would use the player to decode these formats to analog and send 5.1 or 7.1 channel analog sound to your receiver. Of course, this also assumes your receiver has a multi-channel analog input. Not all do. If your receiver is the RXV-659, then yes, that one does have an 8-channel (7.1) input so that would work with the DMP-BD80, or the Samsung or LG players noted above.

The sound of a Blu-ray soundtrack (DTS-HD or Dolby TrueHD) isn't necessarily bad when it's downgraded to regular DTS or Dolby Digital and sent out over the BD60's fiberoptic output - actually in most cases it's better than DVD. But most people want to squeeze every last drop of performance out of their Blu-ray player so they like having the ability to support the lossless surround formats.

Where you can have a problem, though, is with multi-channel PCM soundtracks (also sometimes just called "uncompressed 5.1" or "uncompressed 7.1") on Blu-ray. Admittedly these are not as common as DTS-HD or Dolby TrueHD tracks, but with multi-channel PCM soundtracks, you have to downmix these to two-channel (stereo) output if you use the fiberoptic digital audio outputs. You can set the player to encode rudimentary matrixed surround sound into that two-channel audio signal (so your receiver can decode it in Dolby Pro Logic mode), but this is not as full sounding or convincing as discrete surround sound.

Another option for you would be the LG or Samsung players (BD 370, BD 390, BD-P1600, BD-P3600). They have a "DTS Re-encode" option on the fiberoptic and/or coax digital outputs that re-encodes multi-channel Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD and PCM soundtracks to standard DTS (at a high 1.5 MBPS data rate), which allows you to get pretty high quality (though still "lossy") discrete multi-channel surround sound from virtually any DVD or Blu-ray Disc including Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD and multi-channel PCM soundtracks.

The BD80 is pretty difficult to find right now, so that might not be an option, but the LG BD 390 is a really nice player, albeit a bit more expensive - currently $259.99 on Amazon (make sure you select Amazon as the seller not one of the opportunistic overpriced marketplace sellers). The BD 390 has the multi-channel analog outputs and DTS re-encode features so you have plenty of options. It also has Netflix streaming, built-in WiFi, VUDU and CinemaNow streaming as well as YouTube. So you are definitely getting something useful for that extra money.

Hope that helps.

-CB

Mr. B - Thank you for your detailed answer. I am sorry if I jumped the gun on not being answered. I should have realized and known better. I do appreciate your response and have received a lot of useful info since stumbling onto this site. On another forum I read that with my receiver it gets down to higher bitrate (using analog) on DD & DTS or bass management issues using analog (or something like that) and the best choice is to stay with optical unless I get a new receiver, is this true? They said "If I had to chose between high bitrate DD or DTS with proper bass management and high resolution audio with improper bass management, I would chose DD and DTS" so with that said, would I be better off staying with the BD60 or moving up to the BD80 or the BD390. If it is to move up to one of these, assuming both could be had, which one would be recommended for playback quality and reliability?

[MrBoylan]

Mr. B - Thank you for your detailed answer. I am sorry if I jumped the gun on not being answered. I should have realized and known better. I do appreciate your response and have received a lot of useful info since stumbling onto this site.

No need to apologize. And I'm glad you've found some useful info.

On another forum I read that with my receiver it gets down to higher bitrate (using analog) on DD & DTS or bass management issues using analog (or something like that) and the best choice is to stay with optical unless I get a new receiver, is this true?

Bitrate doesn't apply to analog outputs - it's a digital thing. No one can tell you what your "best" choice is, we can only make recommendations based on the facts and our experience.

If you use optical, the high bitrate lossless soundtracks will be supplanted by lower bitrate lossy soundtracks. There can be artifacts of this lossy encoding, but typically these are minimal. DTS-HD will deliver the DTS "core" track, typically at 1.5 MBPS (1504 KBPS) over fiber or coax. This is the same as the DTS track on some DVDs, though many DVDs opted for a lower DTS bitrate which has more artifacts (768 KBPS) in order to save disc space. For Dolby TrueHD, there is a Dolby Digital "companion track" on the Blu-ray Disc that is delivered over optical and coax outputs. This is typically 640 KBPS. Dolby Digital was actually limited to 448 KBPS on DVD, so right there you've got more data available which means less compression artifacts, so Dolby TrueHD tracks on Blu-ray Disc should sound better than Dolby Digital tracks on DVD even over a standard coax connection.

It's multi-channel PCM soundtracks that pose a problem since they cannot be passed over fiber or coax without downmixing to stereo (2-channel) output and there goes your surround sound. Also, 7.1 channel soundtracks (Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD) will be downmixed to 5.1 because legacy DTS and Dolby Digital do not support 7.1 channels. Your receiver can probably simulate rear surrounds but it won't be precisely the same as discrete 7.1.

They said "If I had to chose between high bitrate DD or DTS with proper bass management and high resolution audio with improper bass management, I would chose DD and DTS" so with that said, would I be better off staying with the BD60 or moving up to the BD80 or the BD390.

It really depends on the bass management capabilities of your receiver for its analog multi-channel inputs. The BD80 does have level controls and delay adjustments for all channels, but the subwoofer crossover is fixed at 100 Hz. 100 Hz is fine for smaller speakers but not so much for larger ones. Some receivers do give you some control over bass management for the multi-channel inputs but many do not.

Also, because of the way low frequencies are stored and transmitted over analog, your receiver would need to have a subwoofer level boost of 10 dB or 15 dB in order to bring the analog bass channel up to the "correct" level, relative to the other channels. This is common to all players, not specific to the BD80. If your receiver doesn't have this kind of adjustment in its menu (or it doesn't apply the boost by default, which some do), then it will be very tricky to get good sound from the analog inputs.

Some people with super high-end (multi-thousand dollar) preamp/processors which lack HDMI inputs are content to tweak things in their system (using multi-channel analog outputs on the BD80 or similar players) so that they can get the best possible sound out of Blu-ray Discs. But even these people may choose to connect *both* the analog outputs and the fiber optic or coax outputs to their preamp/processor, so they can switch back and forth. They'll use the digital input for DVDs (taking advantage of their preamp/processor's bass management, and perhaps EQ) and the analog inputs for Blu-rays so they can hear the full lossless goodness of the new surround codecs.

On systems like this, properly set up, a lossless soundtrack can sound spectacular. But even a lossy soundtrack can sound pretty good too.

If it is to move up to one of these, assuming both could be had, which one would be recommended for playback quality and reliability?

Depends on your priorities. The BD80 is a superior player to the BD60. Better construction, better isolation of components, the super-cool "Playback Information Windows" and those feet! I mean hell, those feet alone are worth $50. But in terms of video performance, they use the same processing so they should be identical. And audio-wise, if you don't use the analog outputs of the BD80 there should be little if any difference between the two players.

The BD 390 is also excellent but it lacks some niceties that the BD80 has such as 4:4:4 color upconversion and 24p mode for DVDs. But the BD 390 is faster to load DVDs and Blu-ray Discs and offers some cool features like built-in WiFi, DTS re-encode plus Netflix, CinemaNow and VUDU. VUDU is the superior streaming platform at the moment, in terms of performance. On the BD 390, 1080p VUDU HDX movies look very close to Blu-ray and they usually come in Dolby Digital Plus 5.1, for discrete surround sound (Netflix is currently limtied to 720p and 2-channel output). I believe the BD80's Amazon video-on-demand can support 5.1-channel sound but I haven't played around with that.

If streaming doesn't matter to you but you're interested in getting the best sound *AND* you're not afraid of a little tweaking (or not put off by it), the my recommendation would be to get the BD80 and experiment.

Peter O'Connell wrote up a nice guide to using multi-channel analog outputs that should be required reading for anyone considering that option. If your eyes glaze over after the 3rd or 4th paragraph then you'd be better off just sticking with fiber optic out or upgrading to an HDMI-capable receiver. Here's the article:

How To Set up a Blu-ray Player Using Multi-Channel Analog Outputs... And Why: BigPictureBigSound

Hope it helps, and doesn't suck you in to the path of perpetual upgrade!

-CB

[Steff3]

Thanks Mr. B..... great information. As far as not getting sucked in to the upgrade path, it may be too late...I am feeling the urge already. Thanks again for the great information and for the link.

[MrBoylan]

Thanks Mr. B..... great information. As far as not getting sucked in to the upgrade path, it may be too late...I am feeling the urge already. Thanks again for the great information and for the link.

Sure... to sum up:

Using fiberoptic/coax outputs:

• Lossless DTS-HD and Dolby TrueHD become lossy DTS and Dolby Digital, which can still sound pretty good (at least as good as DVD)
• DTS HD 7.1, Dolby TrueHD 7.1 and Dolby Digital Plus 7.1 on Blu-ray are downmixed to 5.1
• PCM 5.1 or 7.1 is downmixed to 2-channel
• Simple set-up - uses bass management, calibration, etc. of the receiver

Using multi-channel analog outputs:

• All formats can be decoded from lossless to high quality 5.1 or 7.1 analog outputs (on compatible players) and sent to a compatible receiver with multi-channel inputs
• Bass management and level calibration in player and receiver may be limited
• Set-up can be tricky

Using HDMI output for Audio (to compatible receiver):

• All formats can be streamed from player (or decoded by player to multi-channel PCM) for decoding on an HDMI audio-capable receiver
• Simple set-up: bass management, calibration, EQ and level delay controls in the receiver are used

Hope that is useful. And good luck whichever route you go.

-CB

[Steff3]

By the way...that link you provided is very well written for the average person. Very easy to understand. Thanks for that. It makes my decision a lot easier.

[MrBoylan]

By the way...that link you provided is very well written for the average person. Very easy to understand. Thanks for that. It makes my decision a lot easier.

Thanks. It's all in the editing. Seriously though, Peter is a smart guy and really into this stuff too. He goes by "BIslander" here and on avsforum.

-CB