Panasonic DMP BD80 Audio settings

[Iconoclast]

Are my Audio Settings correct?

Hi:

I have a Panasonic DMP BD80 Blu-Ray Player. I use an AV Receiver with no HDMI, Pioneer VSX-D912. So, I connect the DMP BD80 to the TV with HDMI cable for video only. For Audio I use the DMP BD80 7.1ch Analog audio out terminals. I have a 5.1 speaker system & I connected the 6 cables. I want to verify that I selected the correct DMP BD80 settings for audio.
Since my AVR automatic speaker settings only work when using a digital connection--I manually measured speaker distance & set the delay & volume in the Blu-Ray player.

Digital Audio Output:
Dolby D & Dolby True HD: PCM
DTS/DTS-HD: PCM
(I have tried both bitstream & PCM & do not know which is best)


Under HDMI Connection, I selected HDMI Audio Output: OFF


BD Video Secondary Audio: OFF

Downmix: Surround Encoded

High Clarity Sound: Disable

I bought the DMP BD80 instead of the cheaper DMP BD60 so I could use the 7.1ch Analog audio out & enjoy the newer lossless audio without having to buy a new HDMI AV Receiver.

Also, am I losing anything by using the analog audio outputs when playing DVDs or BDs that have the older compressed audio such as DTS or Dolby 5.1? It seems like a lot of trouble to also connect a digital audio cable & then remember to select one AVR source when playing to discs with lossless audio & select a different AVR source when playing discs with DTS or Dolby 5.1?

Thanks!

[MrBoylan]

Are my Audio Settings correct?

Hi:

I have a Panasonic DMP BD80 Blu-Ray Player. I use an AV Receiver with no HDMI, Pioneer VSX-D912. So, I connect the DMP BD80 to the TV with HDMI cable for video only. For Audio I use the DMP BD80 7.1ch Analog audio out terminals. I have a 5.1 speaker system & I connected the 6 cables. I want to verify that I selected the correct DMP BD80 settings for audio.
Since my AVR automatic speaker settings only work when using a digital connection--I manually measured speaker distance & set the delay & volume in the Blu-Ray player.

Digital Audio Output:
Dolby D & Dolby True HD: PCM
DTS/DTS-HD: PCM
(I have tried both bitstream & PCM & do not know which is best)


Under HDMI Connection, I selected HDMI Audio Output: OFF


BD Video Secondary Audio: OFF

Downmix: Surround Encoded

High Clarity Sound: Disable

I bought the DMP BD80 instead of the cheaper DMP BD60 so I could use the 7.1ch Analog audio out & enjoy the newer lossless audio without having to buy a new HDMI AV Receiver.

Good choice and it sounds like you have everything connected properly. For the analog output on the player's set-up menu, you can either choose the "2+5.1-ch" output option or choose the 7.1-ch output option and turn off the rear speakers in the speaker set-up menu of the BD80. Either option will work identically.

There should be an "LFE boost" setting in your receiver to boost the LFE channel coming from the multi-channel analog input by 10 dB. You should turn this on (+10 dB) in order to get the best (most accurate) LFE performance. Also, set High Clarity Audio to ENABLE or ON unless you are also using the player's analog VIDEO outputs for something. This may improve the sound quality of the analog audio outputs.

Also, am I losing anything by using the analog audio outputs when playing DVDs or BDs that have the older compressed audio such as DTS or Dolby 5.1? It seems like a lot of trouble to also connect a digital audio cable & then remember to select one AVR source when playing to discs with lossless audio & select a different AVR source when playing discs with DTS or Dolby 5.1?

Thanks!

The only thing you lose when using the BD80 to decode everything (DVDs and BDs), is the DTS "extensions" that were made to the standard DTS codec in the last few years, specifically DTS 96/24 and DTS-ES. With DTS-ES, you could actually encode a discrete 6.1-ch mix into a standard DTS soundtrack on a DVD. Receivers or players that decode the DTS-ES signal get a 6.1-ch mix, but receivers or players that do not support the ES decoding get a standard 5.1-ch mix (the 6th channel information is not lost, but is present in the rear 2 channels effectively as a dual mono signal, for a similar effect). DTS 96/24 is similar in that it affords higher bit word depth for decoders that support it, but it defaults to a lower sample size for decoders that do not support it.

The BD80 (like the LG players) uses a DTS decoder called "DTS-HD Master Audio Essential" which is able to decode DTS-HD High Resolution and DTS-HD Master Audio tracks perfectly, but it does not include support for the DTS extensions. This will only be an issue on software titles (regular DVDs and DTS CDs) that exploit these extensions, the number of which is fairly limited. What some people do is use the multi-channel analog input for Blu-rays but use one of their fiberoptic or coax digital inputs on their receiver for DVDs. If you have a universal remote, this is simple because it can just switch over to the correct input automatically based on your programmed macro or activity. But even if you don't it's easy enough to remember - digital for DVDs, analog multi-channel for Blu-ray Discs.

Of course, if your RECEIVER doesn't support the DTS extensions either then the point is moot and you're just as well off using the player to decode everything. The important thing is, if it sounds good to you then enjoy it.

Hope that helps.

-CB

[Iconoclast]

Chris,

Thanks for your reply.

So my digital audio output SHOULD be set to PCM for both Dolby & DTS. If I incorrectly set it to Bitstream, what happens?



I read: “How To Set up a Blu-ray Player Using Multi-Channel Analog Outputs... And Why
By Peter O'Connell” He says that the Sub-W should actually be boosted by +15db. I checked & my AVR does have a setting & it is at 0 now. Maybe I’ll try +12 or +13 & see how that sounds. My goal is to reproduce accurately the movie soundtrack. Once I do that, will I need to re-do my AVR automatic speaker set-up? I still listen to 5.1 TV programming using an HD DVR & use the digital Audio coax to the AVR for audio.

Now I understand that using analog out the player decodes/processes the audio & NOT the AVR. The AVR only will decode/process audio via digital inputs (Optical or coax.)

I’m considering connecting another digital coax cable in addition the the analog cables between the BD player & the AVR. As you say, I’d create another input. This idea brings up more questions.

Since I have a 5.1 speaker setup & not 6.1 or 7.1, would I be able to hear any or the extra information encoded in the DTS extensions you mention?

I also am unable to tell from perusing the manual if my Pioneer VSX-D912 supports these DTS extensions! The AVR was new in 2003.

If, my AVR does NOT support these DTS extension, than there would NOT be a good reason to add the extra digital audio coax cable. And Then I think I may have the BD80 PCM Downconversion incorrectly set to “OFF!” I’m supposed to set this to “ON” when the “connected equipment” cannot process 96KHz signals.


I plan on shopping for a Harmony Universal remote in a few months once, I am familiar with all this new equipment. I don’t want to mostly use the Univ. Remote & regularly have to dig out the other remotes. Need to see exactly which functions I use daily.

Thanks again,
Steve

[MrBoylan]

Chris,

Thanks for your reply.

So my digital audio output SHOULD be set to PCM for both Dolby & DTS. If I incorrectly set it to Bitstream, what happens?

For your purposes, it doesn't matter which you choose (PCM vs. bitstream) - these are settings for the digital audio outputs. You're using the analog audio outputs. When the player outputs sound via analog, lossless compressed formats like Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA are expanded to PCM *first* then converted from PCM to analog. This process doesn't change whether you set the DTS and Dolby outputs to PCM or to bitstream.

BD-Secondary Audio does matter though. If it's ON then this can cause the player to revert to the lossy soundtrack to mix in secondary audio or menu click sounds. So leave BD-Secondary Audio set to OFF if you want lossless surround. You'll need to turn it back on if you want to listen to BonusView (PiP) commentary tracks.

And if you decide to also use the fiberoptic or coax output for DVDs, then it DOES matter which setting you use for DTS and Dolby and it should be bitstream for these S/PDIF digital outputs (definitely not PCM as that would convert everything to 2-channel PCM over S/PDIF and you don't want that). But again, the Dolby/DTS settings do not affect the multi-channel analog audio outputs, only the digital ones.

I read: “How To Set up a Blu-ray Player Using Multi-Channel Analog Outputs... And Why
By Peter O'Connell” He says that the Sub-W should actually be boosted by +15db. I checked & my AVR does have a setting & it is at 0 now. Maybe I’ll try +12 or +13 & see how that sounds. My goal is to reproduce accurately the movie soundtrack.

Peter definitely knows his stuff. He says it's 10 db if your speakers are set to LARGE and 15 dB if they're set to SMALL. So depending on whether you have set your front L/R speakers to large or small in the BD80 speaker set-up screen, the gain on the receiver should be +10 or +15 dB. But you should use a disc with test tones and an SPL meter if you want to be really sure. The BD80 generates test tones for everything *except* the subwoofer channel so it's best to do the settings with a test disc. I find the original AVIA Guide to Home Theater DVD to be pretty helpful for this, though there are other options. And, BTW, the last Pioneer receiver I tested had only two settings for the LFE channel: 0 or +10 dB.

Once I do that, will I need to re-do my AVR automatic speaker set-up? I still listen to 5.1 TV programming using an HD DVR & use the digital Audio coax to the AVR for audio.

No. Unless you physically change the gain knob on your subwoofer itself, then you will not need to re-do your auto-setup routine. None of the changes you make in the player will affect your calibration for your digital sources on your receiver. And the LFE boost setting only affects the LFE gain on the multi-channel analog input.

Now I understand that using analog out the player decodes/processes the audio & NOT the AVR. The AVR only will decode/process audio via digital inputs (Optical or coax.)

I’m considering connecting another digital coax cable in addition the the analog cables between the BD player & the AVR. As you say, I’d create another input. This idea brings up more questions.

Since I have a 5.1 speaker setup & not 6.1 or 7.1, would I be able to hear any or the extra information encoded in the DTS extensions you mention?

Yes and No. "Yes" on DTS 96/24 (at least theoretically) as this is simply greater resolution in the digital signal, not more speaker channels. But "No" on DTS-ES since it only augments things in a 6.1 or 7.1-ch configuration. But the coax/fiber inputs also get the benefit of the bass management options in your receiver, including your auto-setup/auto-calibration system and some of these are probably going to do better than you can do on your own with the limited bass management and adjustments available in the player. For example, the BD80's crossover is fixed at 100 Hz. Your speaker/sub combination might benefit from a different crossover frequency and I expect your Pioneer receiver with its MCACC calibration software may pick a different crossover for digital sources.

I also am unable to tell from perusing the manual if my Pioneer VSX-D912 supports these DTS extensions! The AVR was new in 2003.

Your receiver supports these extensions:

• Online User Manual and Guide for Pioneer VSX-D912 7.1 Channels Receiver by FixYa, Page #37
• Online User Manual and Guide for Pioneer VSX-D912 7.1 Channels Receiver by FixYa, Page #40

But, as you mentioned, you're only using 5.1 channels currently so really the only benefit will be on DTS 96/24 DVDs or CDs. Got any of those?

If, my AVR does NOT support these DTS extension, than there would NOT be a good reason to add the extra digital audio coax cable. And Then I think I may have the BD80 PCM Downconversion incorrectly set to "OFF!" I’m supposed to set this to "ON" when the "connected equipment" cannot process 96KHz signals.

That setting is also only for digital outputs. It does not affect the analog outputs at all, AFAIK. The only reason to set PCM Downconversion to ON is if you are connecting your player digitally (HDMI or S/PDIF) to a receiver that cannot handle 96KHz signals. But this is moot anyway, as your receiver does support DTS 96/24 and PCM up to 96KHz as well.

I plan on shopping for a Harmony Universal remote in a few months

Don't forget to use our online shopping links!

...once I am familiar with all this new equipment. I don’t want to mostly use the Univ. Remote & regularly have to dig out the other remotes. Need to see exactly which functions I use daily.

Thanks again,
Steve

The Harmony remotes work pretty intelligently replicating the important functions of the factory remotes without any tweaking. And with a little bit of effort they can sometimes do more than factory remotes. The BD80 remote does not have a subtitle button on it. But it's possible that the subtitle code for a different Panasonic DVD player could work with the BD80 and be programmed into an activity. I haven't tried this, mind you, but it could work.

Anyway... good luck with everything and don't agonize over it. If you don't plan to upgrade to a 7.1-ch speaker configuration and you don't own any DTS 96/24 software, then the digital connection is probably not essential. But having them both set up gives you greater flexibility and it will allow you to listen to it both ways and see which you prefer.

Regards,

-Chris

[MrBoylan]

I read: “How To Set up a Blu-ray Player Using Multi-Channel Analog Outputs... And Why
By Peter O'Connell”

Hey, Steve,

Just saw your posts over on avsforum. You do realize that the guy who is answering these same questions that you're posting over there (BIslander), *IS* Peter O'Connell, yeah? And that I edited that article before publication? It's not too likely you're going to get different answers out of us on the two forums.

Peter stops by here once in a while as well but obviously there is a lot more traffic on avsforum as we only launched our forum a few months ago.

-CB

[Iconoclast]

Chris, you have been way beyond helpful. Thank you so much!


I had figured out that the AVR would only attenuate the Sub W & not boost it. When I 1st glanced at it & saw no “-” sign I assumed it could go up or down. I’ll leave it at zero. It does sound very nice. The Bass in the opening of “Fifth Element”(DVD, not BD) is prominent & sounds great. Once I eliminated all the rattles on my console. <GRIN> I am using Digital Video Essentials (DVE) on BD to calibrate. I’ve finished the audio calibration & soon will do the video although I suspect I may only need to tweak it as my Panasonic TH65PZ850U looks wonderful with video set to Standard. My Speakers are:

Mirage Speakers (5.1):
OS³-FS Floorstanding Speaker x2
OS³-CC Center Speaker
Omnisat as satellites x2
LF 100 sub Woofer
Mirage suggests using the “XOVER BYPASS” input on the sub. I have done this & let the AVR set the crossover. I would have used around 70-80Hz since my L&R speakers are 70Hz-20KHZ & my CC is 52Hz-20KHz but, My AVR will only go as low as 100Hz (100,150 or 200)Hz for the crossover when set manually so, I assume it is the same using MCACC.

I will not be upgrading to 7.1 as no good place to put more speakers & 5.1 sounds great to me. It took me several years to figure out how to move from 2.1 sound to 5.1! (Room problems, TV on large shelf above fireplace & open floor plan -- ended up completely rearranging the furniture, losing much seating & going for the only wall w/o windows for my new set-up.) I don’t think I have DTS 96/24 DVDs, I play CDs through my CD changer. I tested the BD-80 & CDs sound very good but, not sure better than Pioneer CD changer. So, I will not connect the digital audio cable . If I upgrade the AVR in the future it will have HDMI & that will simplify things. BTW, I have tried to switch the audio on a few BDs among the options in the menu--just listening to the menu music -- & while it sounds different none sounded bad. I know there are audiophiles who will insist that DTS 5.1 is better than Dolby 5.1 yet, I wonder if most H.T. owners could reliably tell the difference in a blinded test. Anyway, this analog set-up should & so far does sound great to me for lossless audio as well as lossy audio.


I appreciate the clarity re PCM & Bitstream, I have noted that in my manual. I left it at Bitstream in case I ever do add digital cable. Seems to be little use for PCM with 5.1 speakers. I also noted your comments re the PiP commentary track & need to turn
BD-Secondary Audio to On when use that feature & back to off when finished & ready for normal audio. I only have a handful of BDs & hundreds of DVDs. I’ve been testing the Audio with “National Treasure -2” on BD & the commentary track worked w/o changing BD-Secondary Audio to On. I know you refer to a feature where you actually see the Director or others in a PiP small widow. I don’t know if I will use that if there is a choice of commentary with no PiP.

I am delighted you found the inf. Re my AVR, it is very similar to my model (only the “K” is different) pg. 37 is identical to my manual & pg 40 is similar except my manual does not say on pg 40:
“You can’t hear the surround back channel
with DTS 96kHz/24 bit sources.”

Mine does say: This receiver can only play back Dolby
Digital, PCM (32kHz–96 kHz) and DTS
digital signal formats (including DTS
96kHz/24 bit). On pg. 37.

I almost turned on VSB AUTO for the 1st time ever. If I understand pg. 40 my L&R surrounds will now SIMULATE back surrounds only When I play a DVD with 6.1 Surround. Otherwise it has no effect. But, then I realized that this too will have an effect only if the BD player was connected with a digital cable. No HD-TV show would have 6.1 sound.
So, when/if I upgrade AVR, if the new one has such a function I will try it.

I’ve added the Online shopping links to my bookmarks.

I’ve heard that one Harmony Remote model comes with a repeater which I will need as my CC speaker blocks my TV remote sensor from my chair. Luckily for now I just turn TV on, sit down & then TV is controlled via Cox HD DVR receiver. But, that feature will be critical for my Universal remote.

--Steve

[Iconoclast]

BTW, the Harmony model I am looking to get in a few months is 890.

[Iconoclast]

Hey, Steve,

Just saw your posts over on avsforum. You do realize that the guy who is answering these same questions that you're posting over there (BIslander), *IS* Peter O'Connell, yeah? And that I edited that article before publication? It's not too likely you're going to get different answers out of us on the two forums.

Peter stops by here once in a while as well but obviously there is a lot more traffic on avsforum as we only launched our forum a few months ago.

-CB

Chris,

No I had no idea. I got the link to Peter’s article from one of your posts here. I posted at AVS 1st. When I saw they had a thread just for DMP-BD80 owners I thought that virtually everyone reading it would own my player & use analog inputs & someone would easily run down the list of settings I asked about. Turns out that the thread had multiple different issues about that player. Bislander was nice enough to reply but didn’t answer all my questions (probably he assumed I knew more than I did).

When you post in a forum without knowing who the responders are & what their level of expertise is, posting the same question in more than one forum sometimes pays off. It did for me as my post here got much more thorough responses from you & I leaned a lot.

--Steve

[MrBoylan]

BTW, the Harmony model I am looking to get in a few months is 890.

Yup, that one does have RF capabilities, so you can configure it to translate IR codes into RF for transmission through walls/cabinet doors, etc. It comes with an RF receiver which translates the RF codes back into IR using little IR emitters (attached to the RF receiver with thin cables) which you place in front of the components' IR sensors inside the cabinet.

Should do what you need. We reviewed the Harmony 890 when it first came out and the co-founder of BPBS is still happily using his, three years later.

-CB

[MrBoylan]

Chris, you have been way beyond helpful. Thank you so much!

No problem.

I had figured out that the AVR would only attenuate the Sub W & not boost it. When I 1st glanced at it & saw no “-” sign I assumed it could go up or down. I’ll leave it at zero. It does sound very nice.

Some receivers work this way - applying the boost by default but allowing you to cut the bass if necessary. The Onkyo and Integra receivers are the same.

I appreciate the clarity re PCM & Bitstream, I have noted that in my manual. I left it at Bitstream in case I ever do add digital cable. Seems to be little use for PCM with 5.1 speakers.

PCM is there for backward compatibility on older receivers. Back in the *very* early days of home digital audio (before DVD players arose), some receivers offered a digital input which was specifically for CD players or DAT recorders. These receivers only supported the PCM (Pulse Code Modulation) format because that's what the CD audio format is based on, and that's all there was at the time (this is before the days of AC3/Dolby Digital). So for this reason, I believe the PCM output option was actually built into the specs for all DVD players (I've certainly never seen a DVD player that didn't offer a PCM output option).

But the S/PDIF (Sony/Phillips Digital Interchange Format) standard does not support multi-channel PCM, only 2-channel, so if you use the PCM option for S/PDIF outputs (fiber or coax), then you will always get 2-channel sound. Depending on player settings, you might get a surround-encoded two-channel mix so a receiver could then decode rear and center information using Dolby Pro Logic decoding. But this is matrixed surround, which is not as clean or precise as real discrete multi-channel surround.

Now with HDMI, the PCM option is still provided for backward compatibility. The HDMI format arose before the new lossless surround codecs (DTS-HD MA, Dolby TrueHD) had been finalized. But multi-channel PCM sound was a known quantity so support for multi-channel PCM transmission and decoding to analog was something that was possible to incorporate into the early HDMI specs. There were a few years where receivers were sold that had HDMI audio support, but only at the HDMI 1.1 or HDMI 1.2 release level. One example is the Onkyo TX-SR674. It offers HDMI switching and HDMI audio decoding at the HDMI 1.1 release level, which means it *CAN* handle multi-channel PCM over HDMI, but it CANNOT handle Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio decoding from HDMI. For receivers like this, you can set the BD80 to PCM mode (both for Dolby and DTS soundtracks), where it will internally decode the DTS-HD or Dolby TrueHD track to multi-channel PCM digital sound and transmit this over HDMI to the receiver. This maintains the full sonic benefits of lossless surround codecs such as Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD MA without requiring a receiver upgrade.

Newer receivers are typically at the HDMI 1.3 level so, if they support HDMI audio decoding at all, they will generally include the on-board DTS-HD and Dolby TrueHD decoding. There are still some exceptions, but those are getting fewer and further between.

I also noted your comments re the PiP commentary track & need to turn
BD-Secondary Audio to On when use that feature & back to off when finished & ready for normal audio. I only have a handful of BDs & hundreds of DVDs. I’ve been testing the Audio with “National Treasure -2” on BD & the commentary track worked w/o changing BD-Secondary Audio to On. I know you refer to a feature where you actually see the Director or others in a PiP small widow. I don’t know if I will use that if there is a choice of commentary with no PiP.

Yes, standard "commentary tracks" on DVD or Blu-ray are actually alternate audio tracks which replace the main soundtrack. These will still work fine with BD-Secondary Audio set to OFF. BonusView (PiP) commentary is different in that it is an entirely independent audio and video stream which can be mixed in on top of the existing video and audio tracks. Because this mixing function requires that the player decode audio tracks to PCM in order to mix them, and because this is a pretty resource-intensive job for the processor, most players (including the BD80) actually revert to the lossy soundtrack when doing this type of real-time audio mixing. This is why we recommend setting BD-Secondary Audio to OFF so you can prevent this lossy decoding from occuring (but then you will not hear the BonusView commentary).

I am delighted you found the inf. Re my AVR, it is very similar to my model (only the “K” is different)

The "K" is for "Black" (or "Kuro" - Japanese for Black). It's the same receiver as yours.

Glad things are working out for you and good luck with everything.

-CB